Worried about Breaking Dawn?

[Chernaudi]

It can be easy to pick out individual flaws and such and who's responsible, but it's not just one person or thing that's causing all the issues.

One thing I won't blame is the cast, and, for the most part, directors. I'd fault DS for being a bit distant and focusing too much on the action (the "guy" thing again, trying to get them to watch the films, though much of that is Summit brass' fault as much as anything), but for the most part, the cast and directors and producers have done well with what everyone involved has given them as far as the creative department (pun partillay intended).

[Tornado]

And of course, the NM Volturi fight scene was way out of whack as far as canon--anyone's who's read the stories knows that Edward is a formidable fighter, so he shouldn't have gotten the crap kicked out of him like that. Unless we can conclude the MR included that herself, we'd have to blame Summit and the producers on that count.

Actually, in the illustrated guide for New Moon, MR is quoted as saying that she originally had Edward taking on the entire Volturi guard, but SM was the one who said, "No, Edward wouldn't be able to do that." SM said that Felix's gift was fighting, Edward's was not, and taking on Felix alone would have been enough to defeat Edward. So MR toned it down. And SM is right. When it comes to fighting hand to hand with someone with Felix's experience, Edward wouldn't have stood a chance, in spite of his ability to mind read.

or modernizing Edward's speech because she knew the targeted teen audience wouldn't actually be attracted to it.

This must be another case of horses for courses, because I liked her changing Edward's speech. Not because I couldn't relate to old fashioned language, but because I felt that SM failed in her attempt to make him sound old fashioned. He didn't sound old fashioned to me. A lot of the time it just sounded stilted and awkward.

But I fully agree that she doesn't seem to accept responsibility for her mistakes, although I know that she does ask fans for ideas. I wonder if there are other factors that come into play.

MR was directly responsible for the hack job that was the reunion scene in Bella's bedroom and when CW wanted to expand it, she went to the Summit execs and they sided with her.

Can you tell me where you read that? Because that just doesn't sound right. Changes are made in scripts all the time, and plenty have been made in every script, including New Moon. And I can't imagine Summit execs siding with a screenwriter over a director.
And I thought the reunion scene was okay. In fact, they pretty much cut it exactly the way I thought they would, the way they cut every scene - to the bare minimum required. It got the point across, and I thought it was touching.

Bill did say that the cast, especially Kristen, did put things back in to the film that wasn't there in the original script, as well as the things that Emmitslover pointed out that Condon said that he stressed over while filming to get right. I guess we'll have to wait for the films to come out for Bill to reveal any secrets

He has said that there are still some "curve balls" in there, though, and he seemed happy with that. In fact, he said that in such a well known book it's good to put a few curve balls in there. Not sure exactly what he means, but it has me worried ...

[Emmettroselover]

Actually, in the illustrated guide for New Moon, MR is quoted as saying that she originally had Edward taking on the entire Volturi guard, but SM was the one who said, "No, Edward wouldn't be able to do that." SM said that Felix's gift was fighting, Edward's was not, and taking on Felix alone would have been enough to defeat Edward. So MR toned it down. And SM is right. When it comes to fighting hand to hand with someone with Felix's experience, Edward wouldn't have stood a chance, in spite of his ability to mind read.

But that still does not change the fact that she altered the scene to make it more about action. That is not the original scene from the book and sure she toned it down more than her original idea, but both were not canon, they were added by MR. It would have not been better for Edward to defeat them all either. Both ways seem wrong because it was not portrayed that way in the book. Even if Edward would have lost, I doubt he would have been dominated like he was in the film. He looked so weak and I guess it is a case of interpretation because SM never made that clear in the books. That is one thing that can be confusing about illustrated guides. Sometimes stuff is added in that just helps to clarify something else and other times things are mentioned that make you wonder about how it came across in the book. It is funny that you mentioned the guide because my mother and I were just reading the official guide for the saga and talking about how some of the revelations were things that you would have never assumed just by reading the books. I love SM for writing characters that I fell in love with, but sometimes she didn't clarify things enough in the books.

[Chernaudi]

From what I've read, Edward is still a formidiable opponent in a fight, and he didn't really need Bella's help in the novel Eclipse like he did in the movie. Felix might still be one of the best vampires in a fight, but he can't see ahead by reading minds like Edward can. If Felix got a little cocky, that could've been the end of him.

Of course, having Edward wipe all the guard out wouldn't have worked either. Neither really fits in with the canon, because a fight in the hall never happened in the novel. I remember this as clear as day from the novel vs the movie.

I think that the scene was included just to amp up the action and give guys whose wives or GF drug them to the theatre something to watch from that stand point.

[Tornado]

But that still does not change the fact that she altered the scene to make it more about action. That is not the original scene from the book and sure she toned it down more than her original idea, but both were not canon, they were added by MR.

Yes, but I honestly doubt it was her idea, or at least, not hers alone. The brass at head office would have said, "We need a fight in there!" much the same way a lot of fans are saying that BD pt 2 needs a fight. Some people just think fights are a prerequisite for movies of this ilk, and I'm sure all the moguls in the entertainment industry do.

From what I've read, Edward is still a formidiable opponent in a fight, and he didn't really need Bella's help in the novel Eclipse like he did in the movie. Felix might still be one of the best vampires in a fight, but he can't see ahead by reading minds like Edward can. If Felix got a little cocky, that could've been the end of him.

Yes, but SM suggested that fighting was his gift, in the same way that mind reading is Edward's gift, so knowing what to do in order to beat Edward would have been second nature to him.

I think that the scene was included just to amp up the action and give guys whose wives or GF drug them to the theatre something to watch from that stand point.

Absolutely.

[Jazz Girl]

And of course, the NM Volturi fight scene was way out of whack as far as canon--anyone's who's read the stories knows that Edward is a formidable fighter, so he shouldn't have gotten the crap kicked out of him like that. Unless we can conclude the MR included that herself, we'd have to blame Summit and the producers on that count.

Actually, in the illustrated guide for New Moon, MR is quoted as saying that she originally had Edward taking on the entire Volturi guard, but SM was the one who said, "No, Edward wouldn't be able to do that." SM said that Felix's gift was fighting, Edward's was not, and taking on Felix alone would have been enough to defeat Edward. So MR toned it down. And SM is right. When it comes to fighting hand to hand with someone with Felix's experience, Edward wouldn't have stood a chance, in spite of his ability to mind read.

She didn't actually say Edward would be defeated, though. She said Felix would be a good challenge for Edward because his gift helped to counter Edward's mindreading. It would have evened up the fight. And, as Edward was always characterized as the most skilled fighter within the Cullen clan, I am willing to bet he's no pushover himself in hand-to-hand combat. To my mind, it was no different than when she altered the fight between Edward, Victoria and Riley at the end of Eclipse In that fight, Victoria and Riley genuinely got the better of Edward, which never happened. In the novel, it is a ruse, designed to draw them in. MR changed it. Similar to them adding Carlisle getting the drop on Edward during fight training. Again, never could have happened. Do you see a theme? Because I certainly do. MR has been very blunt about her efforts to "humanize" Edward and counteract the "perfection of him" that we see through Bella's eyes. It's why she had no compunction about ignoring the fact that Edward would have known by more than one means that Victoria was at Prom and the way that Twilight ended never could have happened. If I am being completely honest, most of my dislike comes from the fact that MR has made no secret of the fact that she wanted to bring Edward down a few notches. In doing so, she disrespects the character, the original story, the universe that SM created, as well as the fans who know and understand the characters and expect, at the very least, true interpretations of them.

From what I've read, Edward is still a formidiable opponent in a fight, and he didn't really need Bella's help in the novel Eclipse like he did in the movie. Felix might still be one of the best vampires in a fight, but he can't see ahead by reading minds like Edward can. If Felix got a little cocky, that could've been the end of him.

Yes, but SM suggested that fighting was his gift, in the same way that mind reading is Edward's gift, so knowing what to do in order to beat Edward would have been second nature to him.

True. But, no matter how much Felix were to operate from instinct alone (which would be the only way to beat Edward in a fight) there's absolutely no way he can't think about what he's going to do. His brain has to process it, and in that split second, Edward reacts. Not to mention, you have the added motivation of Bella being left helpless if he loses the fight (which is why he didn't get into one in the first place, but we'll leave that one alone for right now). There would be no more powerful motivator than that for Edward. That, combined with his gift, would give him every advantage he would need in that fight.

MR was directly responsible for the hack job that was the reunion scene in Bella's bedroom and when CW wanted to expand it, she went to the Summit execs and they sided with her.

Can you tell me where you read that? Because that just doesn't sound right. Changes are made in scripts all the time, and plenty have been made in every script, including New Moon. And I can't imagine Summit execs siding with a screenwriter over a director.
And I thought the reunion scene was okay. In fact, they pretty much cut it exactly the way I thought they would, the way they cut every scene - to the bare minimum required. It got the point across, and I thought it was touching.

CW talked about it in a post-premiere weekend interview. He was asked about fan reactions and he acknowledged that he had heard fans wanted more from that scene but that he had to choose between that and the Stitches scene, which he felt was more important. I understand that scripts change all the time, even in the middle of shooting a scene. But, if you read the original script, none of that dialogue was in it. It was essentially unchanged. "I'm here. I left because I thought you'd be better off. I'm back and I love you...End of scene". I know it's a matter of opinions, but almost nothing important about that scene actually made it into the script. I understand editing down scenes because most movie-goers seem to have the attention span of a kindergartner on Meth these days, but sometimes, you have to acknowledge that, for the sake of the emotional progression and relationship, there are occasionally detailed, emotionally charged, dialogue-heavy scenes that have to take place. In the novel, the scene where Edward leaves is 5 1/2 pages, and almost ALL of that dialogue makes it into the film. Conversely, the scene in Bella's bedroom upon their return is 21 pages of fairly important discussion and it gets a grand total of not even 40 seconds in the film (if you don't count the interuption by Charlie which equates to a third of the scene) and 6 lines of dialogue. It's ridiculous. As to why the production team constantly sides with MR on these issues over the director and even the originator of the characters... well, your guess is as good as mine on that subject. But, the fact remains that it has happened throughout the series.

[Tornado]

And, as Edward was always characterized as the most skilled fighter within the Cullen clan, I am willing to bet he's no pushover himself in hand-to-hand combat.

He never actually beat Jasper in a fight, remember. They called a draw, because it was taking too long in their practices. So he's not necessarily the best fighter. And you have to remember, too, that Alice beat Jasper fair and square, so Edward might not be better than her, either. I have no doubt whatsoever that he's a great fighter, but I don't think he's invincible, and I think any of the Volturi would have been capable of defeating him if fighting him one on one, although I believe (which I think was demonstrated in the movie) that he would put up a valiant fight.

To my mind, it was no different than when she altered the fight between Edward, Victoria and Riley at the end of Eclipse In that fight, Victoria and Riley genuinely got the better of Edward, which never happened. In the novel, it is a ruse, designed to draw them in.

Yes, but in the book, at no point did Edward have to fight both Victoria and Riley single-handedly. Had he done that, I believe the ending would have been different. That's why he let Seth stay. I think Edward's a great fighter, but fighting two vampires at once by himself, especially when one is also skilled (Victoria's gift may well have been escaping, but she would have been in enough fights during her time with James that she would have learned a thing or to. Even Bella could see that she was a good fighter). There's every reason to believe, that if Seth hadn't been there, they would have defeated Edward, or at the very least, killed Bella (which would have killed Edward anyway).
I wasn't particularly happy with that scene myself, but it was more because I felt that Edward had already been played down enough in the film. I felt this largely because I felt there was a lack of any real feeling of love between Edward and Bella during the movie, and then the resolutions to all their fights were cut, and then the motorcycle scene, of course.
But if it had been just the scene with Victoria and Riley overpowering Edward, I don't think I would have minded so much. This is because, for a start, it seems to suggest that Seth wasn't up to the task of taking on vampires more than it suggests that Edward was lacking in skill, and also that they had already "foreshadowed" Bella cutting herself with the story of the third wife. When you foreshadow something, especially in a movie, you really need to follow through with it later on, and even though Bella's ready to do it in the book, unless she actually did it in the film, they might not have been able to make it obvious enough for moviegoers to realise what was going on. And, of course, it's a little boring if you think that Edward's completely on top of the whole thing, and never in danger of losing. Even in the book (and it may have just been her perception, but maybe not), Bella wasn't sure that Edward would defeat Victoria. They just like to make it more obvious in movies, because the audience can miss things very easily. Or maybe they just think we're all dumb! But they do have to keep in mind that people might be seeing it who haven't read the books.

Similar to them adding Carlisle getting the drop on Edward during fight training.

Yeah, I hate that bit, too. I'd like to know if it was written like that, or added on set. I know a lot of the fight stuff tends to be on set, so I don't know.

It's why she had no compunction about ignoring the fact that Edward would have known by more than one means that Victoria was at Prom and the way that Twilight ended never could have happened.

That was to set up for a possible sequel. And again, from a movie point of view, I can understand why they did it. Making the audience aware that Victoria is still around and can cause a problem is difficult in the format. Again, it would be interesting to know if that was in the original script or if it was added on set. Since they would have had to get Rachelle in to do it, probably it was, but I don't know.

True. But, no matter how much Felix were to operate from instinct alone (which would be the only way to beat Edward in a fight) there's absolutely no way he can't think about what he's going to do. His brain has to process it, and in that split second, Edward reacts. Not to mention, you have the added motivation of Bella being left helpless if he loses the fight (which is why he didn't get into one in the first place, but we'll leave that one alone for right now). There would be no more powerful motivator than that for Edward. That, combined with his gift, would give him every advantage he would need in that fight.

I disagree. If Felix's gift is fighting, then it is distinctly possible that he also has some mind reading ability, or something similar, that allows him to know his enemy' moves (just in terms of fighting) in advance, which, combined with the rest of his skill, would give him the edge. Also, as I said earlier, Edward did not beat Jasper, but Alice did. It is therefore at least possible that she could beat Edward. If she can, someone with a lot of skill in fighting could possibly as well. Not to mention that, even if Edward does know Felix's moves before he makes them, Edward still has to have the physical strength to counter them, and that's not going to be so. Just because Edward knows the move Felix is going to make doesn't mean he will be strong enough to stop him making it.

In the novel, the scene where Edward leaves is 5 1/2 pages, and almost ALL of that dialogue makes it into the film. Conversely, the scene in Bella's bedroom upon their return is 21 pages of fairly important discussion and it gets a grand total of not even 40 seconds in the film (if you don't count the interuption by Charlie which equates to a third of the scene) and 6 lines of dialogue. It's ridiculous.

But the break up scene has different dimensions to it. First, Edward has to tell Bella he's leaving. We need to know that. Then, he needs to try and make her think the separation is necessary for her, which she refuses to believe. Then, he needs to tell her that he doesn't want her anymore. All new and different angles, whereas on his return, he's just telling her that he loved her all the time, and left because he was trying to protect her. That's really all you need to say, and I don't think any of us really doubted it, anyway. What's more, they're going to be able to include a lot more from a 5 and a half page section that something spread out over 21 pages. As romantic and nice as it all is (and it is romantic), the honest truth is that most of the dialogue in the return scene is repetitive and not required to get the point across. The point is made in the first part. Granted, the bit about Edward hunting Victoria was a different angle, but even then, it didn't advance the plot of NM, and those kinds of things are always likely to be cut.

[Emmettroselover]

I think a lot of this is based on interpretation and assumptions, not facts from the books as far as how great Edward is as a fighter. That is what makes it all so hard and even some of the things that have been clarified by SM do not give us enough to come to a real conclusion. No one knows for sure if Edward could have beaten Riley and Victoria alone or not because it never happened in the book. We do know that he managed to taunt and defeat Victoria while helping Seth out when he was in a bit of trouble. It is all speculation either way, so I try to go based on what I know from reading. Edward tied with Jasper, an expert at fighting. Who knows which Cullen is actually the best fighter. They all are pretty fierce and have something to offer, even Carlisle and Esme, which is why they were able to battle so many newborns along with the wolves.

All in all, I think we can agree that things in the films have not helped to do the books justice. There are so many things that I can name in Eclipse alone that made everything watered down and loveless at times. It seems the focus shifted from Edward and Bella and more toward action and adventure, but hopefully Condon will bring the focus back to the couple we all know and love. That is all I hope. I really want them to remind people why Bella and Edward made it so far because if you only watch the films, it is hard to understand just how passionate their love is. Showtime is having a Twilight marathon which I love and I just watched Twilight on one channel, skipped New Moon, and watched Eclipse on another. Watching them back to back really makes me love Twilight the most because you can feel the change in tone so much as the films progress. There is a huge difference in focus between Twilight and Eclipse and not just because of the newborns. Twilight had the nomads and there were changes to add them in more, but Edward and Bella were the main focus.

[Tornado]

I think a lot of this is based on interpretation and assumptions, not facts from the books as far as how great Edward is as a fighter.

That is so true. It's amazing how many different interpretations there are, even on the smallest of things. Things that I assumed were obvious in the beginning other people have seen different ways. I guess that's why some of us like some books/movies better than others, and other people have a different reaction. But it certainly makes it difficult to find consensus on this and other fan sites!

All in all, I think we can agree that things in the films have not helped to do the books justice.

Absolutely. But I think that's the same with most book to screen adaptations. There's space for so much more in a book. I can't comment on HP, because I haven't read them or seen all the movies, but I think they must have spoiled everyone a little bit, because every other book to screen adaptation I've encountered has had dozens of alterations. Twilight has actually been one of the better ones of the books that I like!

There are so many things that I can name in Eclipse alone that made everything watered down and loveless at times. It seems the focus shifted from Edward and Bella and more toward action and adventure, but hopefully Condon will bring the focus back to the couple we all know and love. That is all I hope. I really want them to remind people why Bella and Edward made it so far because if you only watch the films, it is hard to understand just how passionate their love is. Showtime is having a Twilight marathon which I love and I just watched Twilight on one channel, skipped New Moon, and watched Eclipse on another. Watching them back to back really makes me love Twilight the most because you can feel the change in tone so much as the films progress. There is a huge difference in focus between Twilight and Eclipse and not just because of the newborns. Twilight had the nomads and there were changes to add them in more, but Edward and Bella were the main focus.

Absolutely. I still watch Twilight way more than the other two. Although I just watched NM the other day, even the middle bit, and I was surprised how much I enjoyed it in spite of the misery in the middle. Eclipse is next, and it will be interesting exactly what my reaction is to it this time. Last few times I got really annoyed, although I had been okay the previous few before that. It seems to change with every viewing. But I do have hope that at least the first part of BD part 1 will give me some more scenes that I can just watch over and over and over and over again!

[Emmettroselover]

The more I watch Eclipse, the less I like it. The more I watch New Moon, the more I like it. I think it is because Weitz had huge shoes to fill in my mind after Twilight so at first I was mainly indifferent. Then I saw just how wrong the films could go with Eclipse and I started to appreciate New Moon more. Twilight is still just as memorable to me no matter how many times I watch it.