Jacob Black #2

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holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:21 pm

Hmm. I understand why Bella said what she said. But I also don't pity her. She could have handled herself better, and she dealt with what happened when she didn't. She had to suffer the consequences. All I'm saying is that she's not the victim in that situation - neither of them are. Neither is the bad guy, neither is the victim. We so often want to classify two sides as good and bad, and it doesn't always work. LIke in the Bella/Edward/Jake triangle. None of them are the "bad guy" and none of them are the "good guy". They all make mistakes and do things they should be ashamed of and probably are. But you can't fault any of them for that. And just like it's unfair to say that the spat at the wedding was all Bella's fault, that the responsibility for keeping the night happy lay solely on her, it's unfair to judge Jacob too harshly for it either. He'd already done plenty of his own keeping the night happy, swallowing his personal opinions, and Bella didn't do it once. The thing is, can we blame her? No one ever stands up to Bella. No one ever holds her accountable for her own actions, and the consequences are never really lasting enough for her to always learn from them. Almost like it's not the boys' fault that they don't think Bella can take care of herself and make the best decisions on her own - she doesn't exactly project an image of self-sufficiency.

Just to point out though, Bella had already been alerted to the fact that the thing that could set Jacob off the most was her doing something incredibly dangerous, without any time to get used to the idea. Remember Eclipse, when he found out she planned to become a vampire?

Once again, I'm not saying it's all Bella's fault, but I am saying that she has as much responsibility for that interaction as Jacob does. In the interest of fairness, and all.

I don't think envy had a HUGE thing to do with it at the time - that probably did come afterwards though! I think the immediate shock, what caused the intensity of his reaction, was the danger factor.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by opulent » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:24 pm

Someone on here said that Jacob turned wolf and ran away when Leah teased him - he didn't run away until he got the wedding invite. That changes a lot of things.

First of all, Jake hates Edward. And the invite is a symbol that Edward won - whether or not Edward meant it as such, it was a slap in Jake's face.
Second, remember what Jake thought about the invitation paper? That there was no way that this was in Bella's taste, that she probably didn't even like the invitations? This probably just exacerbated the feeling that he had that Bella doesn't know what she is getting into, that she is, in a way, entranced into thinking that this is what she wanted. That the Cullens have made all the decisions for her. Which we all know isn't true.
Third, now everyone in Forks knows about Edward and Bella. Everyone that Jake knows, sees, goes to school with, will be pitying him for losing Bella. Leah certainly doesn't handle that too well. Jake most likely wouldn't be able to handle it, either. When he tells Bella that he is giving in, very few people know that he has lost. When the invitations go out, everyone will know.

I think all of this has a little to do with why Jake does a complete 180.

And yeah, I do know what you mean about feelings not being the same as your outward appearance, HOFJ. V

And HOFJ, if all men are similar, then theoretically, Edward and Jacob would react similarly. Edward became jealous pretty quickly when Bella said something about her and Jake. There is no reason that Jake couldn't instantly be envious either. I agree that shock was the major emotion behind his reaction there, but I still think envy had something to do with it right then too.
Last edited by opulent on Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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holdingoutforjacob
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:11 pm

Yeah, you're probably right.

Another thing to consider is, Bella is a completely different person with the Cullens than she is with Jacob. And Jacob can only know his Bella, having never spent any time with the Cullens and Bella as of yet. This probably contributes to why he's so upset that she's marrying Edward - she's marrying into a life of being Edward's Bella, and Jacob probably feels like his Bella stopped existing the moment she left his room in Ethics. Which is also probably part of the reason why the invitation bothered him so much.

Also, was it a complete 180? Or was it just how he'd been feeling? How you know you should feel and how it's fair to feel doesn't always line up with how you DO feel, you know? I think he put on a complete show for Bella because he knew it was the right thing to do.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by Esme echo » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:12 pm

opulent wrote:Someone on here said that Jacob turned wolf and ran away when Leah teased him - he didn't run away until he got the wedding invite. That changes a lot of things.
Oh. Right. That was me. Sorry. I just re-read that part of Eclipse; it seems to me that Jacob really resented Edward, really dreaded Bella's future, and after reading Edward's note (I'll take care of Bella now, Jacob; thank you for keeping her alive for me while I was gone . . .) it was just the last straw in thoroughly crappy day.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by EandB » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:08 pm

Edward isn't any better at acting mature than Jacob he's just smoother about it in a way.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:22 pm

^^ I couldn't agree more. It's completely unfair to compare the two in terms of maturity because Edward has been around for a century, while Jacob's only been around 17 years, and furthermore, up until about a year ago, his life was pretty simple. This is his first time experiencing real true defeat, pain, anger, resentment, injustice, etc.
Esme echo wrote:
opulent wrote:Someone on here said that Jacob turned wolf and ran away when Leah teased him - he didn't run away until he got the wedding invite. That changes a lot of things.
Oh. Right. That was me. Sorry. I just re-read that part of Eclipse; it seems to me that Jacob really resented Edward, really dreaded Bella's future, and after reading Edward's note (I'll take care of Bella now, Jacob; thank you for keeping her alive for me while I was gone . . .) it was just the last straw in thoroughly crappy day.
Ever see that kid's book Alexander and the Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Day, where he plans to run away to Australia??? This just made me think of that. I dunno why... :lol:
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by diane771 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:11 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:^^ I couldn't agree more. It's completely unfair to compare the two in terms of maturity because Edward has been around for a century, while Jacob's only been around 17 years, and furthermore, up until about a year ago, his life was pretty simple. This is his first time experiencing real true defeat, pain, anger, resentment, injustice, etc.
Esme echo wrote:
opulent wrote:Someone on here said that Jacob turned wolf and ran away when Leah teased him - he didn't run away until he got the wedding invite. That changes a lot of things.
Oh. Right. That was me. Sorry. I just re-read that part of Eclipse; it seems to me that Jacob really resented Edward, really dreaded Bella's future, and after reading Edward's note (I'll take care of Bella now, Jacob; thank you for keeping her alive for me while I was gone . . .) it was just the last straw in thoroughly crappy day.
Ever see that kid's book Alexander and the Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Day, where he plans to run away to Australia??? This just made me think of that. I dunno why... :lol:
Poor Jacob, falls in love with someone, who loves someone else a lot more than him. Doesn't get the message, and we all have to sit around and hear about how he is languishing because of the big bad vampire. First heartache does hurt, but I hope everyone is that sympathetic to your friends and family, because you give Jacob a pass on everything, and its nice that he has a support team like you guys. I am more than positive after NM releases his character and Taylor will skyrocket which they should and will have lots to talk about. :)
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:25 pm

Wow okay. I didn't give Jacob a pass on anything there - he wasn't being accused of anything! How can I give a pass to someone who hasn't been accused? Unless I have superpowers, and in that case... well okay. :lol:

I hold Jacob accountable for several things he does wrong, in fact, everything he does wrong. But what I am saying is that you learn from your mistakes, which Jacob hasn't had as much time to make. It doesn't make him right. But I don't hold him to the same standard as Edward, because Edward has had more experience.

To list the things that I know Jacob does wrong:

- He shouldn't have ratted Bella out to Charlie about the motorcycles.
- He shouldn't have said he would rather her be dead than a vampire
- He shouldn't have shown Edward Bella's face from after he left
- He shouldn't have kissed Bella
- He shouldn't have gone to the Cullens when he was so angry

I've left out the instances where things were tit-for-tat, such as with Rosalie. Now, do I understand why he did all those things? Yes. Do I have justifications for all those things? Yes. Do I choose to be understanding for all those things? Yes. But that's not 'giving him a free pass". That's the same as you admitting Edward's flaws and loving him anyway. You see justifications for his flaws, and while I see them and understand them, I don't always agree. That's cool. That's how it's meant to be. But I don't just choose to overlook it because it's Jacob. I want that understood by everyone.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by diane771 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:45 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Wow okay. I didn't give Jacob a pass on anything there - he wasn't being accused of anything! How can I give a pass to someone who hasn't been accused? Unless I have superpowers, and in that case... well okay. :lol:

I hold Jacob accountable for several things he does wrong, in fact, everything he does wrong. But what I am saying is that you learn from your mistakes, which Jacob hasn't had as much time to make. It doesn't make him right. But I don't hold him to the same standard as Edward, because Edward has had more experience.

To list the things that I know Jacob does wrong:

- He shouldn't have ratted Bella out to Charlie about the motorcycles.
- He shouldn't have said he would rather her be dead than a vampire
- He shouldn't have shown Edward Bella's face from after he left
- He shouldn't have kissed Bella
- He shouldn't have gone to the Cullens when he was so angry

I've left out the instances where things were tit-for-tat, such as with Rosalie. Now, do I understand why he did all those things? Yes. Do I have justifications for all those things? Yes. Do I choose to be understanding for all those things? Yes. But that's not 'giving him a free pass". That's the same as you admitting Edward's flaws and loving him anyway. You see justifications for his flaws, and while I see them and understand them, I don't always agree. That's cool. That's how it's meant to be. But I don't just choose to overlook it because it's Jacob. I want that understood by everyone.
I agree with you on that but its lets see how I can say this I guess its excusing things that you normally wouldn't so much and that is the emphasis on all the pain and heartach and that isn't just Jacob its also Bella. And her behavior is not nice at all. I know especially after seen Taylor lately :D its hard not to, and he deserves every bit. But most people go through heartache and depression over their first love but to make escuses for him at times to me is treating him not like a man. Bella was his first true love and she loved someone else how many people has that happened to? I can't imagine. So now that this is over on to bigger and better things. What do you think about the phasing in the movie?
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Post by spicey16 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:45 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Another thing to consider is, Bella is a completely different person with the Cullens than she is with Jacob. And Jacob can only know his Bella, having never spent any time with the Cullens and Bella as of yet. This probably contributes to why he's so upset that she's marrying Edward - she's marrying into a life of being Edward's Bella, and Jacob probably feels like his Bella stopped existing the moment she left his room in Ethics. Which is also probably part of the reason why the invitation bothered him so much.
that is a very good point. it made me think. bella had "her jacob" for, what, maybe 3 months.. then she pines after it until she finally becomes a vamp. What are the main differences between bella's jacob, wolf jacob(not wolf form just after he phased initially), and renesme Jacob???

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