Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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corona
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona »

Tornado wrote:Bella does acknowledge, at the end of Eclipse, that she had been trying to make the two parts of herself - Edward's Bella and Jacob's Bella - coexist, but that it was impossible, and wrong for her to do that. I always thought that was a good way of explaining how she had messed up and the fact that she now recognised that she had to decide between those two, rather than thinking she could have both.

Of course, then in BD she goes on with behaving that way, at least some of the time. We can blame some of it on Renesmee, and perhaps we should also recognise that Bella isn't perfect. She's still got emotions going on, and it can be difficult to get passed that kind of thing. So it's probably understandable that she behaves the way she did, especially knowing how much she hurt Jacob and how much guilt effects her. Maybe we are expecting too much for her to get over Jacob so quickly. After all, the events in the first half of BD happen within a few months of the events of Eclipse. That's not much time to recover from the kind of emotions those situations evoke.
Tornado, the magnets allusion was the best we got from that. But there was something dodgy about it as well. Bella never really comes clean with us and tell us what was really happening with her. In some parts of the book it seems like she really is completely unaware of her feelings, and in others that she is suppressing or avoiding them. So which is it?

You see, I think Bella's doing a little hiding here. What is exactly going on gets the soft focus treatment, and that allows her to continue her behavior in BD while still staying technically off the hook. I also get the feeling that Bella really couldn't come up with a good explanation, because there wasn't one.

Here is one explanation. Bella shuts Edward down in the Switzerland chapter and then kisses Jacob on the mountain because that is what SM wanted Bella to do for various reasons. She set a scene for Bella, but then had to get her there. How it logically gets from the NM reunion to the EC mountaintop is a little shaky, so enter the magnets allusion, and that's it.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

Emotions are unusual and complex things, especially where love is involved. It can be difficult to explain them, even for the people who are experiencing them. Love triangles seem especially messy, and I can't remember too many other examples of love triangles where the love was explained at great length. I think in any case where it occurs it is difficult to explain. The magnets illustration was useful in helping us understand something which is notoriously tricky.

I mean, if you think about love generally, it's often difficult to explain what it is. What is love? How do we know when we're in love? Can we define that feeling? I know for me personally, love felt completely different from the way I had expected it to feel. So explaining something like this is always going to be difficult, and probably any explanation would be unsatisfactory for a lot of people, because we all experience love differently. So what does a writer do? Whatever they can to explain it in a way which is true to the characters. Could SM have done more? I don't know. I do know that I wouldn't have liked to try and explain it myself.
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corona
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona »

Tornado, I would agree that trying to explain love is very difficult, and in most cases it wouldn't be necessary. In Bella's case, I wasn't necessarily looking for an explanation, I was looking more for a reason as to why she had so successfully suppressed her feelings that she was completely blindsided.

Bella opens up to us in NM, especially in the Paris chapter where she admits she is broken and wonders whether or not she should put a claim on Jacob, and would it even be fair since she can't see loving him the way she loves Edward. It's clear that she cares for him, but not clear that she has fallen in love with him.

My appreciation of that chapter is that Bella is letting us into her head. She is being as honest with us as she can.

Now, go to Eclipse and the Switzerland chapter. It's not only Edward that she is shutting down, it's actually us as well. Something is going on, but we are no longer privy to it.

That is what I was looking for, a little satisfaction by having Bella open up to us again.

As an example, with Bella's epiphany in NM, she actually gives us an explanation for the voices in her head, being the knowledge deep down that Edward always loved her.

In Eclipse, though, she is much more opaque. I can come up with some explanations myself, but for such a dramatic revelation I want it to come directly from Bella herself. It is difficult to comprehend how such strong feelings for someone, up to even imagining having their children, can be completely suppressed. If Bella's issue was a lack of self-knowledge, then I need to see what she has learned.

This carries over into BD as well, where the best opportunity for seeing how Bella has changed is lost from the POV switch. Barring that, it could be demonstrated as well by Bella's overt actions and dialogue during that section. But Bella continues some of the same behavior that got her in trouble in Eclipse.

I think I agree more and more with JazzGirl's point, when she says she never really understood Bella during EC and the first half of BD. There are moments where Bella is just baffling to me, but I was completely in sync with her in TW and NM.

P.S. I'm starting to read Jacob's section over again from BD. When I do a first reading I tend to burn through the pages, and while I gave closer scrutiny on subsequent readings of the series, I always tended to burn through that section as well.

I'm noticing now that Rosalie was much worse than I remembered. Here is one passage:

"It might be a trick,” the blonde warned.
“I don’t see how,” Bella said.
“Carlisle and I will always be in your sight, Rosalie,” Edward said. The emotionless voice was cracking, showing the anger through it. “We’re the ones she’s afraid of.”
“No,” Bella whispered. Her eyes were glistening, her lashes wet. “No, Edward. I’m not. . . .”
He shook his head, smiling a little. The smile was painful to look at. “I didn’t mean it that way, Bella. I’m fine. Don’t worry about me."


And I have amend comments about Bella not flirting. This passage is questionable:

"Will you come back later, Jake?” Bella asked as I tried to make a run for it.
“Uh, I don’t know.”
She pressed her lips together, like she was trying not to smile. “Please? I might get cold."
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

I think Bella's thoughts in New Moon are mainly to make us aware that she is considering settling for Jacob. With most of us Team Edward fans, especially at that stage, the desire to deny that she felt anything beyond a brother-like relationship for Jacob was high, so I think that was to try and make sure that we took her feelings for him seriously.

With Eclipse, most of that book seems to be about Bella denying those feelings. She's trying not to acknowledge what she feels for Jake (he spends most of the book trying to show her), so they can't be expressed to us in great detail, because we are inside her head. And she has to keep denying them, because a) now that Edward is back, she is sure she could never feel anything for anyone but Edward, and b) if she faces how she really feels about Jacob she knows she will have to leave him alone, and she doesn't want to do that. So keeping it vague is necessary for her to keep up the illusion that she feels no more than friendship for Jacob. She can't risk examining her feelings any closer because of what she will be forced to acknowledge.

Perhaps SM should have given us more time after she realises she does love Jacob as she works through the ramifications of those feelings and what happened because she denied them, but I honestly don't think I could have taken too much of that! Also, how much needs to be said after the fact? She got it wrong and she has to pay for it, as does everyone else. I'm not sure too much more needs to be said. But maybe she should have enlarged on it a bit more.
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Re: Explorations

Post by smitten_by_twilight »

One of the things that always comes back to me about Bella, especially with regard to her feelings about Jacob, is the tell in Twilight where she says that she was always very good at suppressing unpleasent things. Like how dangerous her boyfriend is, how she's putting her life on the line whenever she's with Edward or Jacob, and her feelings for Jacob.

I have some talent for suppressing my emotions, and my mom has huge talent in this area. You really can bury something so deep that you have no idea that you feel it. And then it comes crashing through sometimes. So it made sense to me, although I agree that it could be expanded on - shown more. But then, Bella never was the most insightful person.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

Not when it came to herself she wasn't, no. With other people she was a little better, at least, when guilt wasn't getting in the way.
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Re: Explorations

Post by jennaentrust »

I find that the Twilight Series is a morality tale because of the issues that hold the story together. It is a realist novel with fairy tale elements which I really like because it broadens the audience and makes it have more of a dream like comforting aspect to a story that has more intense undertones. It is because of these undertones that the story has mythic dimesions.
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Re: Explorations

Post by GrayceM »

There are two sections that struck me the most, and are probably the best explaination for the suppressed feelings and actions Bella has towards Jacob. Don't get me wrong, I'm Team Edward all the way. The whole center of the story is Edward and Bella...but I understand the necessity of Jacob's character. The story wouldn't have been near as interesting if Bella had collapsed into a solid friendship with Mike. :shock: :?

In the Epilogue of New Moon, Bella makes the comment that everything was almost back to how it was before, and that the time the Cullens were gone seemed more like a nightmare than anything else. But before Fall (before Edward leaves) she had not been best friends with Jacob, so she didn't miss him. "The fairy tale was back on. Prince returned, bad spell broken. I wasn't exactly sure what to do about the leftover, unresolved character. Where was his happily ever after?" I think this is the most significant statement. She not only voices her own thoughts but mine as well. In New Moon, Jacob evolved to step into the role of romantic interest and became one of the main characters that should have had resolution. Everything else falls into place when Edward returns, except Jacob. Jacob is shoved from his place with that return and he resents Edward, in part, because I think he realized that Bella would have settled for him given enough time. Jacob had a human reaction to a supernatural situation and Bella never responded the way a normal human would to anything.

In Eclipse, when Bella leaves work and goes to see Jacob he asks her, "So what's the story, anyway?"..."I mean, since the last time we...well, before, you know..." He struggled for the words. He took a deep breath and tried again. "What I'm asking is ... everything is just back to the way it was before he left? You forgave him for all of that?"
It was an awkward position for her. Like telling your best friend that you despised her husband after they separate and then they get back together. :blush: You know things can't go back to before that event, so how do you deal with the new position that you have put yourself in?
I think Jacob expected her to be angry enough at Edward to make him have to "win" her back and she didn't make him do that. She loves Edward unconditionally just as he loves her and when you feel that way, there is no reason to "prove" yourself.
I know that Bella cared about Jacob a great deal. Loved him, in fact, but more like a brother and best friend than she ever could love him romantically. But, she was going to settle. She had almost decided to be happy with what she had instead of being miserable over what she thought she could never have again. At that moment, literally, Edward comes back into her life. A chance to have a small part of what she had lost, a chance to at least see him again. So any feelings that she had built up for Jacob were left unresolved. Which is why Edward understands that it's essentially his fault for Jacob being in her life. There's no way to know, of course, but we're assuming that she wouldn't have gotten that close to Jacob had Edward not left. He sees Jacob as a consequence of his own actions. Had he not left, Jacob wouldn't have been necessary to Bella's survival.

Any of us who have read MS know that one of Edward's reasons for deciding to be closer to Bella is that he realizes she will one day say yes to someone and he realizes he wants that person to be him. He believes that if he wasn't around, she would eventually be interested in someone. I had to explain this to my husband also. Think of the story without the supernatural aspect. Bella moves to Forks and meets her childhood friend Jacob whom she ends up marrying...This is what would have happened if vampires didn't exist. And if they didn't exist, Jacob would be the most logical choice for her to make. But we know that Bella would have never considered Jacob if Edward hadn't left. She would never have entertained the idea of being happy with him. But Edward did leave...and Bella did consider Jacob. Not as a substitute, but as an alternative. She realized in Eclipse that her own feelings for Jacob were what was unresolved. That door was opened, and there was no way to close it again. She couldn't let it go until she faced and dealt with those feelings. That would be like trying to unsee the meteor Edward compares Bella too. She was changed by Edward leaving as much as he was changed by her showing up in Forks.

I think that we saw her feelings in New Moon and then were left in the dark, much as she was herself through Eclipse. She didn't want to deal with the leftover character. She just wanted to be back in the fairy tale and be happy. I also think Jacob himself was a reminder of the reason she was in that position to begin with. For her to deal with her feelings for him, she also had to come to terms with the fact that Edward had devastated her and that she had been only a shell of a person. That she had needed to lean on someone. And let's face it. Bella is not used to needing help or being taken care of...
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado »

GrayceM wrote:Loved him, in fact, but more like a brother and best friend than she ever could love him romantically. But, she was going to settle.
I'm not sure I agree with that 100%. She certainly loved him less than Edward, but I think TGDS in Eclipse shows us that it's a little more than just as a brother.

Having said that, I'm still not completely sold on the idea that she would have ended up with Jacob if Edward hadn't existed. I think SM believes this, but looking at their characters I have my doubts. Would they have had a relationship? Probably. Marriage ...? Maybe. I certainly don't think it would ever have been "as easy as breathing" because they are so different in their tastes. Bella as a human couldn't keep up with Jacob and all his motorcycle riding, outdoorsy, build-with-his-hands interests. Her interests are more cerebral. I think their relationship, if they'd had one, would have had a lot of challenges.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Jazz Girl »

I completely agree, Tornado. Yes, they had a lot in common as children, when their fathers essentially made them play together because they were together. And, when you are a child, you'll play with anyone who's around, find something in common with them so that you can have fun for the period of time you have to be around each other. But, Bella isn't a child anymore, and neither is Jake. Their interests are much more set and by adolescence, you tend to congregate with people with whom you have common interests, people who like the same things you do. Edward&Bella at least shared a lot; a love of literature, a preference for conversation over adventure, a love of family, a caring nature, a love of music, a lot of commonalities that they could use to spend time together. Bella doesn't really know who Jacob is when they reconnect, just that he's different from Edward, which is why she seeks him out in the first place. Anything and everything that she loved before was a painful reminder of Edward, which means pretty much everything that she did because they had those things in common. She stops listening to music, stops reading, stops living for a time because even feeling is too painful. So, when she's forced out of her fog, the only way she can avoid the pain is to seek out the exact opposite of Edward, which is Jacob. That might be a great temporary fix, a way to ease back in to the world. But, in the long run, there has to be some sort of common ground other than he isn't someone else. In short, Jacob is the perfect "rebound" (for lack of a better term) relationship for Bella. Now, would Bella have settled for him, likely stuck around, gotten married, maybe had a few kids? Probably. But, I honestly don't know how you can experience the love that exists between Edward&Bella and then settle for some pale illusion of it. I don't think it would have lasted. Bella would have stayed for a while, and Jacob would have accepted that. But, eventually, I think Jacob would have come to resent her because he would know that she preferred someone else, a preference he could never understand. And, I think Bella would have eventually returned to her true nature, which would have separated her from Jacob even more.
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